Hybrid cars versus diesel / biodiesel: Which is better?
I just responded to a post of my criticism of CNN's hybrid hype article, where someone commented that hybrid cars were hype and that biodiesel was the answer. (more)
This train of thought seems to come up often.
While I commend biodiesel users, I do not see biodiesel as viable answer to oil dependency, though biodiesel could be a part of the solution. In particular, I would love to see a biodiesel hybrid vehicle.
Still, it does take a extra energy to produce biodiesel. Is that energy clean and cheap? Up until recently, the answer to that question was no, but new research does suggest that the potential of biodiesel is growing.
Additionally, it would take a lot of land to create enough biodiesel to end foreign oil dependency, although new forms of biodiesel could significantly decrease this land use.
Inevitably, I worry, it could be agribusiness that
would dominate biodiesel, and the land would become
even more polluted with pesticides and fertilizers, just as it has with ethanol
Nevertheless, today's biodiesels are not the same corn-based cellulosic ethanol boondoggle now strangling America.
Compared with today's hybrid technologies,
biodiesel make a strong case. However, plug-in
hybrids and experimental hybrids have been
demonstrated to achieve as much as 250 mpg, and some
believe a biodiesel hybrid could achieve as much as
500 mpg, in terms of oil reducing potential.
At the end of the day, the potential of hybrid technology offers too much
upside not to invest, and if combined with diesel and
biodiesel, offers a real solution to ending foreign
oil dependency in the short term, while ending oil
dependency in the long term.
The battles shouldn't be between biodiesel and hybrid cars, but rather how can both be mainstreamed sooner.
Related -- Clean Diesels versus hybrids
One thing that is not mentioned often is the power source used when charging a plug-in Hybrid. If it's coal, how much does it matter that we are reducing dependency on foreing oil. How much oil was used to mine the coal and ship it to the plant to be burnt? Do we want to encourage the use of more oil to supply this coal power? I know the answer from you will be no, but that doesn't change the fact that a very large amount of the power in this country is still generated from coal. Another topic that I'd be interested to know more in is the batteries used in Hybrids. What goes into making one of these? What are the consequences when they are no good anymore and how long until they are no good anymore? I'm not talking about future technology here, I'm talking about the current NiMH batteries that are in use in today's hybrids.
Steve,
There have been numerous studies that prove that the electricity used to power a plug-in hybrid is cleaner and more efficient than burning oil, especially if you plug in your vehicle after coming home from work (off peak hours). One such study was completed by the Argonne National Laboratory.
Additionally, in California some are using solar arrays to generate their electricity for their plug-in.
In terms of batteries, the batteries should last - minimally - at least 8 - 10 years. According to Toyota engineers, there isn't any reason that the batteries in the second generation Hybrid Synergy Drive couldn't last much longer.
Your question regarding the pollution aspect of the materials used in the battery is a good one, and one that I don't have a complete answer. However, I would bet that the battery materials can be recycled and properly disposed and/or re-utilized.
Biodiesel has the highest life cycle energy return of any existing alternative fuel. Including Hydrogen fuel cells is their current state of development. The electric plug-in idea is a good one, particularly when paired with a diesel hybrid powered by biodiesel. I have yet to see a complete analysis of how this electricity is created. Coal? Hydro? Solar has yet to show a viable solution. Let's keep digging! (And utilize the best options available now)
The electricity is created just like the regular electricity in your area.
Studies, such as by Argonne, show that using even standard electricity from your house is still cheaper and cleaner than using gasoline via oil.
If you top off your batteries in off peak hours, the process is much cheaper. Overall, the average price would be about a dollar per gallon.
Typically, the batteries in your hybrid aren't going to be fully depleted. So, you would just be topping them off. Then as you drive and break, you'll generate your own electricity.
I believe, with subsidies, solar is viable in places like California, especially if plug-in hybrids are utilized. I know of people a few people in Southern California that power their house and two electric cars with only solar power, and their costs are significantly cheaper than their old power bill and gas for two cars.
Just after I made my post, CNBC ran a special on solar power. With natural gas prices rising, and the threat of hurricanes predicted for the next couple of decades, solar power is becoming far more cost-effective.
Coal powered electricity is neither renewable nor clean. Any emissions for electric plug-ins should include the emissions generated for the electricity, not measured exclusivly at the tailpipe.
That WAS taken into account by the study. Coal generated electricity is still cheaper and cleaner the oil power.
It takes energy to create bio-diesel. It will take pesticides and fertizilizers to create bio-diesel. That also results in pollution.
Plug-in hybrids are not utilizing that much electricity, you are just topping off your batteries, which is far cleaner, far cheaper than using oil - even if the electricity comes from coal.
It doesn't; however, have to come from coal. The point is, if solar power could not only power your home, but your vehicles - cost effectively - how big of an energy revolution would that be?
Well, that is possible, TODAY.
Still, without solar power, plug-in hybrids can extend the fuel efficiency of a hybrid vehicle to 80 - 100 mpg. These hybrids could end foreign oil dependency as fast as the vehicles could be made.
Additionally, a car functioning on electric power, particularly a hybrid is functioning much more efficiently than a conventional vehicle on gas or biodiesel.
In congestion, in stop-and-go traffic, waiting at a stop light - in these conditions - biodiesel or gasoline cars funtion very inefficiently, which wastes significant amounts of energy and cuases significant amounts of pollution. Hybrids fuction MOST efficiently in these conditions. So that electricity from your house is being used EXTREMELY effectively.
Additionally, hybrids will become much more efficient over time, as the second generation Prius did compared to the first generation Prius.
This evolution of hybrid technology, plus combining plug-in hybrids to biodiesel, could create vehicles capable of achieving 500 mpg within the next decade. In 10 years, conventional vehicles on biodiesel will still average 30 mpg, 40 mpg at best.
That's not worth striving for?
I would immagine that IF the government would let farmers grow corn instead of paying them not too, Bio fuels would be mor avaliable and cheaper to use. Bio Deisel is very expensive compared to regular deisel.It is too bag that biog oil companies lobby to keep us dependent on oil. They shold start buying good land and grow corn
The influence big energy has on American politics needs to be held in check without question. Unfortunately, only 'the people' are capable of such an act.
Through our consumerism and by voting, I believe we can make a difference, especially if 90 percent, rather than just 50 percent, of the the people vote. Then it wouldn't be so easy for lobbyists to influence elections.
One key issue regarding the production of bio-diesel as an alternative fuel to reduce dependency on foreign oil and reduction in air emission is being missed. Growing plants used for bio-diesel taking up more land is in no form the answer to our energy and environmental problems but to also reduce vegetable oil waste from the thousands of restaurants in California. Recycling used vegetable oil by collecting, filtering and transesterfying waste oil into clean bio-diesel is more sustainable and viable solution.
M. Lucht
Seal Beach, CA
Recycling is always a good idea. I think that the people that use recycled vegetable oils to run their vehicles are true patriots and revolutionaries.
Unfortunately, recycled vegetable oil can't replace petroleum, so it can't be used on a wide scale. Plus, too many American consumers are just too fickle.
I support hybrid vehicles simply because I think the technology has huge upside, incluing biodiesel and flex-fuel hybrid vehicles, and this upside can be sold to all automobile consumers without really changing any of their habits or expectations.
Unfortunately, the majority of Americans just aren't concerned about foreign oil dependency or pollution - at least not concerned enough to take any serious action.
Still, to all those driving on french fry oil, KUDOS!
A question. Large trucks, farm equipment, heavy machinery run on petro diesel. Electricity, ethanol, etc. do not seem to produce the power needed for these as well as locomotives, ships, etc. Does anybody have info on the use of these fuels for those applications?
I don't have the greatest answer, but anyway.
GM hybrid technology will be better suited to large equipment and already powers many buses, so it would definitely fit the needs of agricultural equipment.
Alternative fuels, such as ethanol, and even electricity, could power many of these vehicles as well, there just hasn't been much demand.
The problem with something like ethanol, today, powering a ship or locomotive, is quantity. Ethanol burns cleaner than gasoline, but not as efficiently, according to the Department of Energy. Thus, you need between 20 - 30 percent more fuel for the same trip - not very efficient for ships and trains. Ultimately, still, fuel cells would be the best for ships and locomotives.
Still, ethanol and bio-diesels, while they have been used for more than a century, just haven't received the type of investment that gasoline and diesel have received.
Additionally, electricity is often used for light rail, such as subways.
On a slightly different, but related path, diesel hybrid technology appears likely to power the future of large, and very heavy military vehicles.
Thus, I think it is just a matter of time before alternative fuels and engines power heavy machinery.
Yes, it bugs me too when someone says hybrids are hype and biodiesel is the solutions. Why not both? Thanks for responding to that.
But it also bugs me when plug-in advocates make sky-high mpg claims without qualifying them. Doesn't ANYONE realize that the MPG you get in a plug in is highly dependent on the distance you drive after each charge. Sure, if you drive 10 miles, you MPG will be awsome. But if you're driving cross country at 1000 miles per day, it will be only a tiny bit better than the non-plugin version. Why not state something like "this plugin can drvie X miles on battery alone" instead of trying to come up with a MPG number?